Talk IBC

Talk IBC is where we discuss things related to inflammatory breast cancer, from patient's personal stories to the latest in research. This podcast is sponsored by The IBC Network Foundation.

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Talk IBC

Dr. Bora Lim and Josh Newby

May 30, 2025 • Terry Arnold • Season 3 • Episode 1

Dr. Bora Lim and Josh Newby discussing their work in inflammatory breast cancer research, the challenges of securing funding for rare diseases, and the importance of patient involvement in academic centers. They also discuss the evolution of breast cancer treatment and research, the need for seed funding for rare diseases, and the importance of collaboration and adaptability in advancing cancer research and care.

Talk IBC Podcast with Dr. Bora Lim and Josh Newby

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Terry Arnold: Hi, welcome to talk, Ibc. And I'm very excited to have 2 wonderful guests with us that are working on special projects. And so, Dr. Lim. I'll start with you. We'll defer to you as a physician, and also as a beautiful woman. Dr. Gora Lim and I met because of her involvement with inflammatory breast cancer at Md. Anderson, and I'll go quickly to Josh.

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Terry Arnold: who I do not want to overlook, because he is also a beautiful person in spirit. I met him originally when he was involved in Baylor, and he was running a charity of all things for inflammatory breast cancer called Teresa's Research foundation. So welcome to the podcast.

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Terry Arnold: Now, Bora, let's start with you real quick. Tell them a quick Bio. I want to switch over to josh, and then we'll get into the conversation about what's going on inflammatory breast cancer research today.

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Bora Lim: Yeah, thank you, Terry, and you know, good to see you again, Josh, like I think we are friends. We've been friends for a long time. My name is Pura Lim. I'm an associate professor at Md. Anderson Breast Medical Oncology department, and I have, like a slight research hat where one is a leading of the translational research within the department and also in the inflammatory breast cancer program. My interest is really trying to bring the

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Bora Lim: bench to bedside to bedside to bench back. So we call it 5 B systems. So we can have the best treatment therapeutics to you who are in need of the urgent treatments today. So that's our goal. So nice to meet you.

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Terry Arnold: Good to be here. Now, Josh, let's do you, because I must admit the 1st time I met you I did a double tank because you were like interested in inflammatory breast cancer. I'm like, wait, what.

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Bora Lim: So that it is, yeah. So.

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Terry Arnold: Out there doing things for a long time.

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Joshua Newby: Yeah, yeah, so it's it's great to be here today and see some some old friends. And so, yeah, you know, we have a foundation Teresa's research foundations for metastatic breast cancer.

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Joshua Newby: It's been around for 12 years, but of course we have a deep interest in inflammatory with my work. I also worked at over 10 years at Baylor College of Medicine, and so I got to learn a lot about inflammatory breast cancer and kind of how important it was and how much need there was there. And so it was, you know, when I got to meet you and learn about all the great things you've been doing, Terry.

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Terry Arnold: Well, it was exciting to me, because so often, when I 1st started talking about inflammatory breast cancer, when I was diagnosed in 2,007 people told me. Oh, there's no such thing, or it's so crazy where it didn't matter. And so it was very encouraging to me to meet you, Josh, because you started your foundation just a little ahead of us.

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Terry Arnold: And I thought, Wait, this guy's actually making something happen. Maybe I can make things happen, too. And then I love the fact that now we've kind of aligned we're going to do things together. And then you were at Baylor, and now, as I understand it, you're running the foundation full time. Yay.

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Joshua Newby: That's.

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Terry Arnold: Brave leap of faith, but also it shows promise. And, Bora, I met you at Md. Anderson.

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Terry Arnold: and then you left for Baylor for a little while now you're back at Md. Anderson. So I love that knowledge share. And I love the fact that we're all working together. So where do you want to start about what's going on in the world of inflammatory breast cancer? Who wants to go first.st

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Bora Lim: I mean, I guess I can maybe start by. You know what we have been doing in the research area. And then I can, you know, move the baton to Josh, who has been really critical members to make this really happen within the Texas Medical Center. So, like, you know, Terry, you mentioned. You know, when I 1st came from Pennsylvania, driving I don't know 230 miles where I don't even know like how many miles, you know, for, like 2 and a half days from Pennsylvania

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Bora Lim: here to join my 1st faculty position at Md. Anderson, I met a lot of people, wonderful people, but inflammatory breast cancer was always really speaking to my heart.

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Bora Lim: The 2 reasons. Number one. It is one of those cancers that kills so many patients. Just no good reason. 10% of breast cancer cause mortality comes from Ibc. But then, on the flip side of it is that there are so little things that's been known.

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Bora Lim: And even though there was a dedicated group of researchers and clinicians within Md. Anderson, who's been focusing on this Ipc. For a long time, I just felt like we could still do so much more because we were losing patients all the time, so that really spiked my interest. And

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Bora Lim: one of the things that I wanted to do as a young green junior faculty. Was that okay? Well, you know, we are in an Ibc dedicated group. Still, a lot of clinical research will, you know, not include Ibc patient as their participants? So can we actually create a group of Ibc dedicated clinical trials utilizing any resources we have in Md. Anderson.

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Bora Lim: and make sure that every single setting, either stage 3, stage 4, her 2 positive, her 2 negative, triple, negative, metastatic, 1st line metastatic second line, can we create different platforms of the research in there? So for 1st 5 years I spent a long time trying to work with the pharmaceutical companies, and within Md. Anderson and outside of Md. Anderson, trying to create that portfolio. And through that process we learned a lot. So we were

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Bora Lim: able to launch one of the few dedicated Ibc. You know the Egfr targeting immunotherapy her to targeted tyrosine kinase inhibitor combinations. And while many of the studies didn't really have an exceeding score, as we were hoping to

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Bora Lim: from collecting obsessive tissues and blood. Now we are at the point that we close all of this 1st chapter of clinical trials, analyzing them, and really learn where the critical gaps are. So the next few years of the forefront that is coming in is okay. What did we learn from this 1st generation of the clinical trials?

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Bora Lim: What worked, what we didn't work. If it didn't work, why, it didn't work. So like, for example, there's a tumor associated macrophage that we knew for a long time in the animal study is also shown that it's important in the human data. There's a Tgf Beta pathway, just a chronic inflammation pathway. It is very obvious, being an inflammatory breast cancer. That is a something that we have to pay attention. But it is actually showing in our tissue analysis that is actually indeed

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Bora Lim: true. So some of our upcoming study that we're trying to open in that Ibc, and you know, associated Tmbc space, we think that that's going to hit that. You know very critical gap that we couldn't address in the previous study, and the other aspect of that me leaving to Baylor, and then kind of came back in a very sneaky way, like around the Covid time

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Bora Lim: that my friends didn't even know that I left. It was like, Oh, boy, we haven't seen you for a long time, and I was like, Yeah, you know there was a Covid, but I also left, too. You know I came back.

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Bora Lim: but that leaving to Baylor opened my world to even more exciting science. Wonderful collaborator within Texas Medical Center. So

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Bora Lim: that kind of really led into like really deep dive into biology, like utilizing our skills and our knowledge. And Md. Anderson, and then add the expert within the Tmc. Mainly in Baylor, you know, and also extended areas in Dallas. We're able to form a sort of like consortium that Josh has been really putting a lot of foot, and, you know, trying to get us together. So with that, all of these experts and brains together, we think that we can really make a difference, that we have never been able to so.

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Terry Arnold: That's where we are.

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Terry Arnold: And and Josh, like I said, you don't know how much of inspiration you've been for me, because when when I 1st got involved, this people said, Oh, it's too rare. It doesn't matter. Nobody's gonna care. And I went to a medical conference that you put on at Baylor, and I thought, what this guy's doing.

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Terry Arnold: It's got some real traction. So let's chat about you and bore, and how this is going. Now.

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Joshua Newby: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, that's very kind of you. And it's been great to see what you know Ibc networks been doing. And and you know, looking forward for so yeah, I mean, there's just, you know, we're so blessed being in Texas, right? And we're in the largest medical center. And you know, to see what you know what people are able to accomplish. And then, you know, up in Dallas we've we've got some good collaborators at ut Southwestern as well. And

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Joshua Newby: so you know, I think kind of the best thing to do is to kind of take back a little ways, and that this is something that's been building for years and years and years. So this isn't something that was just kind of thought of in the last month or 2, with everything going on in the world, or and even in the last 6 months. This is like years in the making as as Bora alluded to. And so

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Joshua Newby: and you know, it starts with her. And I meeting, you know, there's a wonderful advanced breast cancer program at Md. Anderson that I've been a part of for a long time, and I think the 1st thing people should always know is that Baylor and Md. Anderson are very friendly. The researchers, you know.

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Terry Arnold: No.

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Joshua Newby: Go back and forth across the street and to work, and also just doing lots of research grants and just are very friendly. And so that's actually how Bora and I met at the time I I referred to her as Doctor Lim. And now, of course, I'm required to to refer to her as Bora, or she'll yell at me.

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Joshua Newby: But we both were. This is pre covid. We were both asked to present our our research projects that we were working on at the time. We work a lot.

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Joshua Newby: I work a lot in the patient research advocacy, space bringing research advocates, together with oncologists and researchers, to help accelerate discovery. And so I was presenting. And she was, of course, presenting some of her amazing Ibc data and some of the work she does with Dr. Nick Nevin. It's just amazing. And so I was just blown away, and so we just hit it off. I think we had known about each other for a long time. I had heard so many amazing things, and I think some of the patient advocates that helped

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Joshua Newby: including yourself and others at at Anderson had mentioned maybe me in the past, so we just headed off, and I went back to Baylor, saying, you've got to go across the street and talk to this Dr. Lam. And so

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Joshua Newby: that's how that kind of started. And so my longtime collaborator is Dr. Shawnja, who's now the director at Baylor College of Medicine, and I think Bora can attest to is probably one of our most favorite humans on the planet. He happens to be a brilliant scientist, but he's even a better person. And so I took him across the street to meet to meet Bora, and they really hit it off. And so

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Joshua Newby: as as she mentioned, she came over to Baylor for a few years and really built she was able to bring her clinical expertise and then sharing some of our research areas that we are really strong in and married with the strong Research society. Anderson really advanced these technologies as she so eloquently talked about, you know. And so we've just been building this over time. And

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Joshua Newby: while this was all going on, we were hosting, as you mentioned, a medical conference for for metastatic breast cancer. And of course Ibc was covered in this, and I know that Bora gave a talk one year at the meeting we had with Mayo Clinic in in Arizona.

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Joshua Newby: about Ibc, and and really was able to gain some traction at that meeting on on the topic.

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Joshua Newby: We have since after 10 years of doing the conference, have decided to to no longer to do the meeting. Though it made a great impact. As everyone knows in the world, the increased costs with inflation and things like that. Just it was hard to justify it. We we felt like we learned a lot. Made a really good impact, especially on these relationships between patient advocate and researchers.

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Joshua Newby: but felt that we could do more for the researchers and oncologists. And, more importantly, we thought we could do better for the patient advocates, and even better for patients. And so that's where we are now. We've launched an initiative in Texas with the 3 comprehensive cancer centers in the State. So that's at Md. Anderson, Baylor and Ut. Southwestern, with with breast cancer.

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Joshua Newby: oncologists and researchers, Dr. Lim's really leading it for us with support from Dr. Shawnjang, as I mentioned at Baylor, and then Dr. Isaac Chan at ut Southwestern, who's a young oncologist, but also has a Phd. And has some cool technologies. And so

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Joshua Newby: that's what we're doing. And so what our role is is to to bring people together. So in addition to these strategic partnerships with these academic centers, we're also developing strategic partnerships with patient advocates, patients and other nonprofits. And so that's where you come in, Terry. And that one of the 1st areas that we identified is

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Joshua Newby: one of the things that we're really focusing on. And this is what

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Joshua Newby: Bora really brings to the table because of her.

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Joshua Newby: her what she does in clinic. Right? She she brings a level of urgency right? And so what we realized is, we need to act now. And you know, instead of kind of sitting back and kind of developing a complex.

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Joshua Newby: you know, plan and taking all these years which which can be done. And that's also a good role, too. But given the need, especially in Ibc and in metastatic, that that's not an option here, right? And so we're really focused on developing long term curative approaches for metastatic disease, and that's, of course, involves all subtypes like like Ibc. And and so what we're doing is

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Joshua Newby: so working on a large rant together right now. That that the team is working on and including another researcher at Baylor by the name of Bing Zhang, who just does this amazing omics research. And so yeah, we're really excited to to move forward with that and kind of expand on it.

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Terry Arnold: And we're going to put some links in the information. So people can find you through Teresa's Research Foundation, and then also Dr. Borla at you at Md. Anderson. Now, I know. Okay. I say this all the time when I get together with you researchers, but I want to repeat it because I think we need to drill it home. When I was 1st diagnosed with cancer, I just assumed that you guys were given a bucket of money

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Terry Arnold: and said, Here go research. I had no idea how hard it was to get, not only grant money, but grant money for rare diseases, and I had no idea how little money went to late stage cancer. That's how I got involved. It was because, literally, a researcher showed me a paper one day

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Terry Arnold: that he had gotten a 1 score on it from the dod that they said they would fund. They put on a pay if it's a 1, but pay if pay, if we have it. It was put at the bottom of the list, and if they didn't run out of money before they funded everything else, he'd get it because they said it was a rare disease

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Terry Arnold: and too low impact. So kudos for you guys who risk your careers because I know if you don't have a grant, you don't have a job.

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Terry Arnold: but also, what is it that you want people to know about more like what science is coming up. What do you think is going to be to go from bench to translation to patient? That's a long time. Obviously we need caution to not hurry, but we would like to shorten that time. But what do you want people to know that's coming down the pipe, or what have you seen that?

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Terry Arnold: You know they kind of didn't expect. Or where do you want people to know? And I'm gonna say one more thing before I quit talking. I always encourage people if they have the bandwidth and the means.

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Terry Arnold: even if they're getting wonderful care locally to tap into an academic center.

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Terry Arnold: You need

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Terry Arnold: their biopsies. You need to put them in your data, and you can then take that care back home and work as a team, because we keep talking about teamwork. So anyway, so okay, those are some. I threw a bunch of things at you, Boris. Sorry, but you're smart. You can do it.

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Bora Lim: Yeah, no, no, I think these are very important points. So I think one of the things as a breast oncologist that I have learned is that you know, if you look at the how breast cancer treatment has been developed. For a long time we have been relying heavily on something we called evidence-based medicine.

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Bora Lim: And of course, that's how we learned the cardiology how to protect the people from diabetes. And so the model there is. We have a large number of patients, and one patient group received a current standard therapy which you think that we can improve.

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Bora Lim: And then there's this other drug X that we call the intervention, and then you have the intervention, and then we kind of give them a certification. Say, you know older age, we try to evenly distribute them. You know we have a like other factors. We think that it might confound the result. And so that type of model is wonderful. You know. That's how most of the knowledge that we have gained. That's how we know the chemotherapy work. That's how

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Bora Lim: we know the radiation is important, right after the surgery. That's how we know that. How like, you know, the endocrine therapy should be like 5 years, 7 years, 10 years. But when you think about it, though, like for the endocrine therapy between 5 to 10 years, we needed the 3 decades of Follow up to establish that evidence.

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Bora Lim: So while those models are wonderful. It doesn't really apply to the rare tumor. I think that's 1 of the bigger problems. So one of the reason why, you know, the rare tumor has been kind of a little bit of shunt from the research is because I think if you actually talk to the leaders in the field, they will say, Oh, yeah, it's very important, especially if they have any family members or friends who are getting the experience. You know, we'll get an email and say, Hey, Bora, can you help with this rare tumor? Blah blah!

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Bora Lim: But then, as somebody who has to distribute the resources in older model of drug development, I think that type of rare tumor to be tested in the same way of the non rare tumor would have been never successful. You know there's a lot of examples, for example, like some of the pancreatic cancer, approved, drugs were approved because they were desperate. And then there was the only very.

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Bora Lim: you know, less subpar type of randomized study they could ever do in that time and era.

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Bora Lim: And then, like, when it comes to the real life, it really does not help the patient. So I think there was a big inherent issue as to how people tried to fit every single thing, including the rare tumor, into like non rare cancer model. So I think there's a lot of efforts. Now, one of the good thing is, you know, in the older days we all relied on this clinical interventions and annotation, because we really didn't know

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Bora Lim: I didn't have a tool to understand the biology in a deep dive like we do now. So 2 things, there's so many technologies that we can actually do like even looking at the cells in a single cell level, you know. So, Terry, you're actually funding our single cell study for inflammative breast cancer. So you know this better than anyone. So instead of looking at the bulk sequencing, now, we are looking at the every single cell in the tumor

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Bora Lim: tumor microenvironment. And you know, and all these things. And we have actually computing power. And all this like AI model that actually can help us to code and analyze the data. Of course, there's a still human expertise that's needed. But the time of absorbing and analyzing this data in the short amount of time is possible.

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Bora Lim: you know, like human genome Atlas project like, took how many years, 30 years from the DNA analysis to finally have the 1st paper, and we all clapped and like, Wow, finally, we solved this problem. Now we are at the speed that we have never seen before. So there's a huge improvement of the data processing in the Omics technology and patched with

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Bora Lim: drug development capability. So in older days, we used to have like Nci drug screening. So like when I was a fellow, we'll screen like 400 drugs and say, Oh, yeah, I have this, like, you know. Tmbc, very aggressive model. I screen them with the 400 with the IC. 30. This drug seems to be kill the cell. Very well, then, we pick out the drug and say, How does it work? How does it work, you know? Is it working through apoptosis pathway? Is it inducing something?

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Bora Lim: But now, what's actually happening is if we have a clear target and we have a resistant mechanism, and how we should actually combine them with other things.

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Bora Lim: Now, we can actually engineer each compartment of the drop and then completely make a new robot drop. And, like, you know, for example, bispecific antibody. As one example, you know, anti. Pd, one plus vegf.

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Bora Lim: They understood by. If you co-binding them, the T cells and the angiogenesis factor, there's a computing more binding, and then they even have a different structures that how can increase the affinity while it doesn't disrupt the cell, you know. So there's so much of detailed understanding that how you can actually design the drug. So that is why, nowadays, you know, there's 2 successful models of how we can transfer the patient's life today is

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Bora Lim: still the immunotherapy that includes this bispecific antibodies or conjugates, and the cell therapy, you know, so that we are involved in all those aspects

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Bora Lim: and vaccine, you know. So that's 1 of our initiatives that we're trying to do that, thanks to like Josh. And you know, Bing and Sean's all these wonderful people.

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Bora Lim: And then the other aspect that Terry you mentioned that we used to be like tissue is the issue, and, which is true. 2025 tissue is still the issue.

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Bora Lim: Bob.

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Bora Lim: Now we are at the point that we could actually use the blood for a lot more information. We have a circulating tumor, DNA cell free, Rna. There's a methylations that we can look into. And all of this used to be so challenging because we didn't like we needed a supercomputer to analyze all this data and trying to juxtapose with the advancement of the AI. I think we can actually getting closer to analyze the blood. So we don't have to no longer rely on tissue the issue anymore. So we can actually, in real life

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Bora Lim: tracking. How the patients are doing is that any developing resistance? We're not there yet in 2025. But I think we are very close to that. So

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Bora Lim: yeah, those are the things that I think is going to change our cancer treatment in near future.

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Terry Arnold: Exciting. Now, Josh, you you've been kind of leaning in. Is there something you want to say.

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Joshua Newby: Oh, no, I mean it's just I mean I get excited, you know.

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Terry Arnold: Cheese.

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Joshua Newby: Yeah, when you hear her talk about it. Because we've also, I think you and I have been blessed to kind of see this journey that that she's been on right, and and, you know, to kind of see it all come to fruition.

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Joshua Newby: But I think it also just highlights the complexity of it right is that you know that's why we need help. It's I think, the other thing, too, that you know she's very humbled not to talk about is, it's very expensive, right? And you know, with, you know, I mentioned it earlier with inflation. But you know the cost to run. These experiments have gone up right? And so. But but funding pay lines don't right. So you know, we're continuing to need help. And I think that's also why you need.

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Joshua Newby: You know, I mentioned that you know, what I'm really focused on is is, you know, getting to a point to curative approaches right? And and unless you look at it from the detail that that you know herself and others are looking at it, you're not gonna get there right? You know. Right? Yes, we're looking at improved treatments right now, and but the goal is to get to that curative approach. And if you don't look at it in the way that they're trying to do it. You're never gonna get there. And so I think that you know, that's why we need this whole team approach because it's so complicated.

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Terry Arnold: That's why I always bring up the thing about the assumptions. I just had these assumptions that you guys were given buckets of money and said, to do this. And then, when I started learning about it, that's why I reluctantly started the Ibc network. Because I realized, you know, because I thought, I want to do something, pay it forward and it to me it seemed so vain to start a foundation. It's like, okay. I had cancer, you know women write a book, they start a foundation. It just seems it just hit me funny. But I started realizing how little money went to research. And I thought, well, that is something I think I can help with.

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Terry Arnold: And so, like, I use example a lot. There was like one young researcher at Md. Anderson. We gave her $180,000, and she turned that into a 2.8 million dollars. Grant

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Terry Arnold: from it was either the Dod, the Nih, I forget which one. And so our seed funding can turn into the place to get you. So I don't want to keep repeating myself, but either of you want to address the fact of what does seed money mean? Because one day the Ibc network wants to be the bigger money, not just the seed funding. We had thought by now we would be the bigger money. But the pandemic kind of slowed things down

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Terry Arnold: for us on how hard we were hitting people because there were so many things pivoting. We didn't want to take it. We didn't want people to be suffering, but we want to be either end of that spectrum. We want to be that discovery money to allow a researcher to go to a place that maybe they wouldn't be allowed to go to. And then, hopefully, we can also stick with them and be that bigger money. But so what are some challenges you guys see right now in the research world

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Terry Arnold: about funding or or needing advocates to write those letters. When you do turn those grants things like that. What are some things you want people to know.

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Joshua Newby: Yeah, Bori, you wanna you wanna jump in there. Do you want me to? What do you wanna do.

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Bora Lim: Yeah. Josh, you go first.st

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Joshua Newby: There's so many different areas to cover there, right? It's like, where do you even begin?

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Bora Lim: No.

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Joshua Newby: So I think the thing is is that especially when you're looking at like a rare disease like this, or or things like that, you know.

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Joshua Newby: that's really where you know. You know, seed funding and and things like that are more important than ever. Especially and I also, I think, yeah. So I think I'll focus there first.st I'm already thinking about jumping the next thing. And I'm like, Oh, wait no but I think you know. Yes, like you said, you know, being able to turn that and leverage that right? Because that's really what we need to be able to do is is show

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Joshua Newby: that there's you know, a translational benefit right or a real clinical benefit. And so that seed funding for something like this can really show that. And then that gives us a better increases our odds of you know, when we're submitting these grants and and looking for other other funding as well. The thing that was also distracting me is kind of

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Joshua Newby: something that's a real passion for me, and I know from Bora as well, and you mentioned a little bit. There Terry is. Is the young investigators. So with my work at Baylor it really opened my eyes to you know, young faculty trainees.

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Joshua Newby: You know the transition to becoming a full fledged scientist and have your lab, or to be an oncologist at an academic institution, is not a trivial thing. I also think that that's something. Why, you know, advocates and oncologists and researchers really get along because they share something in common.

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Joshua Newby: though I don't want to take away from someone's diagnosis and and the side effects and things that they're going through on a on a daily basis. And of course, we're losing people to these diseases. But the one thing that they share is that they don't complain.

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Joshua Newby: you know, and I think that that's something that's really important to highlight is that you know, both groups, all of these groups are, you know, people that are just kind of have their head down and are just moving forward in life to make a difference. You know whether it's a patient, you know, trying to, you know, do the treatment so they can be there for their family and loved ones, whether it's an oncologist getting through clinic

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Joshua Newby: or a researcher, you know, doing that extra experiment staying in over the weekend. There's a real desire there to make a difference. And so I think that's something that's shared. But more than ever with what's going on in the world right now we need help for these young investigators especially so I think this seed funding and the things that your group has done is so important. More than ever.

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Terry Arnold: And for I want to get you for this, too. But like I was thinking about like earlier, you said about 30 years, and people get excited, and and we all want it right now, right now, right now, you know I get it. But I know that we're all standing on the shoulders of someone who ran before us, and hopefully we can keep things sped up. But I got to do something really cool. And we're recording this in May of 2025, and I was thinking about it. My birthday is in just a few days, and it was my birthday was the day I woke up, and my breast was red, hot and swollen, and I realized something was wrong with me.

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Terry Arnold: and I was misdiagnosed. For a long time I got diagnosed. It was interesting when I started bumping around in the Ibc world, not knowing how to help, I met a man named David, who was one of the early advocates

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Terry Arnold: at Md. Anderson back in 2,006, and he knew the elegance, and he knew Morgan, Welch, and he knew all these people, and I ran into him one day in the store and went, hey, I know you, but I don't know why I know you. And he goes. Yeah, I know you too well. He was working at a jewelry store near my house, and I got to do something really cool. The other day. He he got involved in advocacy because he lost his wife.

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Terry Arnold: and then later, he ended up marrying a researcher involved in.

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Bora Lim: Oh, wow!

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Terry Arnold: Was a researcher at Md. Anderson, and it's just a funny thing, but I took in a young lady who was diagnosed. Olivia, who's been very vocal about her stage, 4 diagnosis, very young, with a new brand baby in her arms, and I took

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Terry Arnold: her in to meet him

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Terry Arnold: the other day, and she's well, and her child is now 3. So that means she's 3 years long wellness, and he started crying, and I said, I need you to meet David because you don't know what he did for you.

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Terry Arnold: It was way before, I mean. She was probably 15 when he was doing this stuff, you know.

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Terry Arnold: And so

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Terry Arnold: so when I hear somebody say, 30 years, whatever we are doing everything we can to accelerate it safely.

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Terry Arnold: But I do get excited to think about what's coming after me.

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Terry Arnold: and and to get to go in and thank David for what he did, and he still cares and is still involved. But, Bora, what do you see that you want people to know

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Terry Arnold: about hope, about science, about getting close to academic centers? What would you want

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Terry Arnold: to be sort of the takeaway for people when they want to talk to the 2 of you.

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Bora Lim: I mean. So the thing is, you know, when I think about the cancer, you know, I get very passionate about it, and honestly, like. I think I may have mentioned to you and Terry and Josh over Happy Hour. I was never like a born in academic kind of person. I was like, you know, like party gore, you know, like a artist, you know, Hippie, I don't know.

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Terry Arnold: Oh, yeah, you're dippy. Dippy, cool? Yeah, I am. Yeah, thanks.

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Bora Lim: Very non academic person. But you know this Ibc, where rare tumor breast cancer research really excites me. The reason is because, you know, I actually have, you know, wonderful family. But I was never really relying on my family. I always felt like I was kind of like the lotus floating around, and if I have a new land, I just go and kind of get my roots for a few years, and if I'm done like I go and like go to the other lake.

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Bora Lim: so I never really felt that really, truly belonged to family very opposite from many of a Korean decent Asian person. But then, when I met this, this wonderful people who suffer from breast cancer

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Bora Lim: like they are one individuals, but they run the whole family. Sometimes they they run the whole church. Some of them are like grandma for the whole community, you know. They're like a daughter. They have like these young kids. They're the they're it.

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Bora Lim: So if I can help that one person, maybe I can, you know, really help the whole community.

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Bora Lim: And the way the cancer happens when you think about it is that it's your own cell, you know. It's your own body.

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Bora Lim: Turn to you, and their goal is to survive even the cost being the possibly death of your own host that where you came from. So it's kind of like, you know, it's very so because of the nature of the cancer. It's very tricky because it mimics a lot of like what you actually that's really supposed to have in your body. And yet it has an ultimate survival advantage. So

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Bora Lim: that's 1 of the reasons why, even if we go through, I don't know future changes. Who knows? Maybe Agi will take over the humanity. Blah blah. I still think that the cancer is going to be in our butt. And you know, like really being the pain in the butt. And so that's why, if we invest now and continue whatever the giants of the breast cancers and the cancer world has been doing and accelerating.

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Bora Lim: I think we could still kind of potentially help that in the future generation. Even if you live in Mars, for example, I think the cancer may actually not disappear for a long time. So that's how I see it. And so one of the things that we could potentially do in 2025 is by utilizing and putting all of this together, and really trying to create a map in the best way that we can actually do. So. Like, you know, one of the things that

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Bora Lim: it's a little bit of side project, but I've been always passionate about it. The single cell, you know, project. So even though I'm a rare and aggressive breast cancer person. I still spend the human breast cell atlast, you know, trying to understand the human, the normal breast cell.

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Bora Lim: And then I was a little bit involved in the Dcis just pre-cancerous. Then we have this ongoing analysis in the Tmbc ibc luminal B, which is one of the cancers, and we have a last, the final gift program where patients donate their body at the end of the crime scene. So by understanding all this chronological evolution, then maybe we can intervene up front. So we don't have to go through all this painful process and maybe

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Bora Lim: advance the way that we can actually help our even stage 4 patients to be cured.

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Bora Lim: And one thing that I learned as very early on is that I can't do that by myself. We need a whole community like. So when somebody asked me like, Hey, Boris, what do you actually do? And they're like, Oh, yeah, Bora, you, in doing this, you're doing that, you know you used to be considered as like the model of failure, they will say, Oh, you're add, you do too many things. You're going to set up yourself for the failure. But I actually tell everybody that what I am is the translational contractor.

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Bora Lim: So if you need somebody who's going to do proteomics, I know the guy who can do the best proteomics in the world.

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Bora Lim: If you want a next generation sequencing, I know a person who can do the best next generation sequencing. I know a guy who can do the best single cell sequencing. But who's going to put it together? Me as a translational contractor. So my job is to develop getting all of these experts together, make sense and get the best therapeutic blue map today

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Bora Lim: and deliver to the patient, and then continue to cultivate and improve. So the next patient will be better than the one prior, you know. So that's how we see it. And that's why we need a lot of people, both in the community and the science world to bring this together. And that's a little bit of against the academic model. Because, you know, academic model has been developed that

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Bora Lim: you are so great. You're the expert. You get a recognition, you get a funding big funding, and then you keep generating the data. You are the 1st author in the big paper, and then that's how you recognize for the next grant. So I hope in some way. It's very unfortunate what we are going through now in the funding situation. It's been very

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Bora Lim: that, you know. I'm at least clinician, so like in worst case scenario I can go, and, you know, treat patients and get get them vaccines. So I have a means to still survive. But my, a lot of scientist friends are at the verge of survival.

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Bora Lim: So it's been very painful to watch. But I think this might be. Give us an opportunity that we can really think about how we're going to recultivate the next generation of academic model instead of trying to give one person a credit? Can we really value the team science. So that way, we can really move the needles to the next level. So like, that's where we are.

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Terry Arnold: Like when Josh said something earlier, because I didn't want to interrupt. So I feel like I talk too much in these. You know, you're talking about your your medical confiscated change. But one of the things that happens is with growth. There's going to be change, because hopefully, you have

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Terry Arnold: taking care of something, and then you can move forward to the next place, I've seen that in just the 12 years of the Ibc network there are things that we did in the beginning. We don't do anymore because we we did that. We did that well. And so what's the next place? And then, Bora, I like how you talk to yourself about being a contractor because we put the name network in our legal name, because I thought I wanted the Ibc network to be a hub.

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Terry Arnold: Bora, you want to do research. I know, Josh, he wants to connect.

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Bora Lim: Thank you.

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Terry Arnold: I know somebody who wants to fund. Let me be the place to connect and put you guys together and and see a lot of medical cooperation, so that we aren't stuck in a single academic model that maybe needs a little bit refreshing. But that doesn't want to throw the baby out of the bathwater, either.

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Terry Arnold: you know.

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Terry Arnold: and I know. One thing that really got me going is how little money went to Dr. Oliver Boglor, who used to be with Baylor, who's now, I think, with it.

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Bora Lim: Nci, I think, yeah.

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Terry Arnold: Yeah, he did a paper for me, showing how much research went to inflammatory, and there was less than 120 grants

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Terry Arnold: in over 20 years, and that number has not changed very much, and what number it has changed is from the Ibc network. So he made me see, because in my mind, if we can do something about the rare cancers, the really aggressive cancers, late stage cancers, hopefully, that will apply

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Terry Arnold: to something this earlier stage.

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Terry Arnold: And like, we're not in the panic mode like what you mentioned with, you know, some of the other cancers. So how do you guys want to wrap this up. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted people to know.

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Joshua Newby: Yeah, I mean, there's so much I mean, I think it's

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Joshua Newby: You know, there's so many different things to say right? I mean, I think one would be you know. Trust right? You know. I think that's something that's that's really important. So you know. I will just add that you know. Not only have I known known Boar forever, but you know she also took care of my wife, who was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer, and that really opened up a lot of my my eyes a lot, you know. I had gone through it with my mom.

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Joshua Newby: Of course. All the way back in you know, when she passed away in 2013. But it was a very different experience going through it with with my wife, of course, and having a young family, but it also just gave me, you know. I thought I knew Bora right. And but she she actually said like I said, took care of my wife getting to see her do that, and and

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Joshua Newby: in real time, right with with my own family. Just gave me such a bigger appreciation for her. And also just the the understanding, the need to kind of. I kind of look at it like this way. There's no turning back now, right? You know, as you said. You know, we evolve over time, and

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Joshua Newby: you know, try to find new things and how to how to advance to ourselves. Right? And I think that's what it gave me is going through that with my wife and and watching, you know, the the amazing care that was provided to me because cause of Bora

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Joshua Newby: And and you know, Dr. Woodward, who a lot of people know and was also instrumental in in my wife's care. Who's you know? She's a veterinarian. And so, you know, there's a lot of sensitivity that went into that to make sure she could still practice and

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Joshua Newby: all those kind of details. But the details right? That's what I want to leave with is that that's the thing is that you know, if we're trying to get into these security approaches. And you you mentioned it, Terry, too. What's great is is that you? You learn in one thing and then apply it to the other. I think Bora talked about that as she has other interests as well. That's something I've really learned a lot as well in my different roles I've had is, you know, all these things are kind of interconnected, and so, if you can learn one thing in another, it's potential to apply

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Joshua Newby: than another. And so, though, for example,

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Joshua Newby: you know, this is kind of a rare disease, I think I believe that you know, we're learning. We're going to learn a lot in some of these studies about triple negative. And we're going to learn a lot about you know, metastasis and different technologies and things like that. So yeah, I mean, I think it's just kind of, you know, there's a lot of thought behind this. And and I think that's what I would want people to know. And I think with what's going on in the world. You know. I don't want to dive, too, into it. But I did just come back from DC. And

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Joshua Newby: I think there's a lot of hope out there. There's a lot of amazing patient advocates really trying to push the needle. And you know, just create awareness about what's what's going on and why it's so important. I think, Bori, you touched on it so well.

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Joshua Newby: this isn't going away. This problem is not going away right. And so we, the the best thing to do is find a new way forward and how to attack it. And that's what that's what we're trying to do here.

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Terry Arnold: All of our heads are bobbing. So if you're listening on spotify or audio, all of us are heads are bobbing, everyone's smiling. No one is feeling hopeless. But we, I think we do want to focus. And we also want to encourage people to do something

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Terry Arnold: to, you know, advocate, donate, participate if you are in treatment, and like, I say, if you can like you said, the issue is a tissue. You may not necessarily need that that biopsy, but that physical biopsy. But

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Terry Arnold: or what would you say to a patient who maybe is happy with their care in small town? Wherever

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Terry Arnold: what does that mean if they take a minute and come to an academic center to do a little team, I think that's something I'll kind of want to wrap up with. What do you think about that.

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Bora Lim: Yeah, no, I mean, it's been such a wonderful like refreshing discussions that we're having. And it gives me a lot of another thoughts. But so that area, especially when it comes to, you know, like the second opinion, we call it like second opinion and 3rd opinion, 4th opinion, sometimes, in 5th opinion, 7th opinion, I think the 13th opinion was the highest that I have ever seen, but I think actually in the end, the way I see it as a provider is that it's your personal right and your

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Bora Lim: like. I don't know, like your privilege. So of course, you know, I have met patients. They're like, okay. What you're telling me is not too much different from my hometown team, you know. So why did I have to come over all the way here, and I said, Well, I mean the validating that what you are proposed at home is the same as what we are offering. I think that's actually great reassurance. And so the way I see the second opinion in early stage cases, mostly the insurance, you know. So just in case there's a very small nuances

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Bora Lim: that might actually, you know, by slight change. Maybe you're, you know, for example, in Josh's case, that let's say, if somebody has a very fine motor skills that is required for your daily work. And you know the brain functions. And all these things sometimes that very small neons of expertise can make a really long term difference. And, Terry, you have experience with limpedemas and things like that. But, more importantly, when it comes to a little bit advanced setting, I think, actually

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Bora Lim: something we call it as a 6th sense. I think there's actually official neural something term for it. But there's actually a 6th sense of the clinical team, and then the clinicians and all the researchers when you're dealing with that special disease, because by seeing and dealing with a lot of that disease and think about it all the time. I used to think about it. Ibc. Every single day sleeping like 4 HA day by doing that.

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Bora Lim: There is the 6th sense that we can actually bring to that patients that nobody else may be able to capture, that could potentially make a slight difference that can turn the course to a completely different area. So I think I would say, if you have a means to it, why not taking advantage of it? If there's an expert center.

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Bora Lim: go and see see if it's actually that's 1 thing that is, you might have needed

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Bora Lim: or not just knowing that, you know, they may have a slightly different, you know, recommendation, but that does not mean that one team is right or wrong. It is just more of a you know I kind of explained it as a you know, going to a

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Bora Lim: I don't know if I could say like Cadillac shop for your car, and then they're like, Oh, yeah, what do you think about this back rear mirror about this? Then this angle, 108 like, who cares about that? But sometimes that angle difference could make a huge difference. So

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Bora Lim: if you have a chance, take advantage of it, don't be afraid to be participating in the research that may actually save your life, and your, you know, loved one's life so. And then, if you have any questions, you know we love to now even have a short video, whatever that we can share with the team. So and you know, Terry, you know, Josh, like they're wonderful. They sometimes deliver the information the way better than we can actually do.

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Bora Lim: So they're like this late term experts. So if you don't hesitate to reach out to them and get the as most information as you need.

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Bora Lim: so.

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Terry Arnold: To you guys, I could talk to you for forever. But I appreciate your your busy schedules, and I want to thank you on the behalf of all the people who never get to thank you for what you did, because I do know, even if they've not met you.

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Terry Arnold: Treatment has been affected by the things that y'all have done.

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Terry Arnold: And so there's always that grad of debt that I always try to say, let's see the the thank you. I never get to give.

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Terry Arnold: I never get to thank Morgan, Welsh, someone who made something happen for me. And people don't get to thank you. So I want you guys to be encouraged because there are people alive

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Terry Arnold: because of what you did. And I love what you said more about

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Terry Arnold: when you save the woman you can help save the community. I think that's very, very important, too, and I would love to see see as much good come out of what we do as possible any closing thoughts before we go for the day.

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Bora Lim: I mean, yeah, I mean what I can say, like, just really, briefly, you know, Terry, you mentioned about what seat funding, you know, when I used to be that assistant professor who sleep like 4 HA day and drink like 2 monsters per day. I didn't really have much of the grant funding. There was a lot of clinical activity, a lot of clinical trials they were bringing in. But I actually didn't really have a way to kind of independently apply for my funding just because I was just so busy and overwhelmed.

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Bora Lim: And I needed this one data set to be analyzed trying to have the preliminary data to launch my next clinical trial. But I didn't really have that money, and after like being a 3rd year Assistant Professor, I think the institution gave me this like a little tiny money.

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Bora Lim: thinking for me to spend so much time on the research. It was not a lot of money, but that was good enough to be able to analyze the data and then put that for the preliminary data. Get the next Iit approved. So that is what seed money is. And so if you ever feel like, okay, is that little money going to do anything, it can actually make a huge difference like the patient's life. Also researchers life, too. So don't be shy about

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Bora Lim: helping us.

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Joshua Newby: I think that's a really good point, right?

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Terry Arnold: Our process, our process really easy and simple. We we have a rolling invitation. There's not a 1 time a year deadline, because I know y'all's lives are difficult, and we try to make it as easy as possible. What were you gonna say, Josh?

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Joshua Newby: Oh, I just think that's a really good point in that, like, you know. Not only can it make a difference in their lives, but you're, gonna you know, you might be able to get someone over the line that to really, you know, focus on this disease area and and really make a difference in patients lives. I just I just like, she said. I think there's a really good point to cover that as well. And

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Joshua Newby: yeah, Terry. Just I mean what you guys do. You know, I think your flexibility with this? You know these rolling deadlines, because the targets always moving right. And I think you're always able to you know, able to step in when needed. And and you've done that countless times, I know. And we're certainly looking forward to working with you on on some of these new initiatives.

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Terry Arnold: Can't wait to hear more and thank you. Today we've been talking to Dr. Lim at Md. Anderson and Josh Newby, who is now a full time. I guess I'm calling. I'm giving you a title executive director, right.

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Bora Lim: I don't.

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Bora Lim: Yeah.

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Terry Arnold: Yeah, he's been at Baylor for 9 years. He started Teresa's Research Foundation 12 years ago.

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Terry Arnold: and I think, based off your mom's experience, and then later, it was for your wife right.

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Joshua Newby: Yeah.

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Terry Arnold: Having cancer. So you you've had a long vested interest, and I appreciate your selflessness of this, and I also appreciate the leap of faith that you're taking, leaving a secure job to be

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Terry Arnold: head of a charity to make a difference. So thank you both for talking to me today, and I look forward to future updates.

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Joshua Newby: Awesome. Thank you so much.

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Bora Lim: Thank you. Thank you so much.

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Joshua Newby: Thanks.

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Terry Arnold: Thanks. I'm gonna.